Mukund
Hello and welcome to the pedalmyway podcast where we talk about anything related to cycling and fitness. I’m your host, Mukund Murali. If you’re a fan of the show, Please remember to subscribe to this podcast and follow the website paddlemyway.com. Also follow at paddle my way on Instagram to let me know if you’re cycling. And fitness goals.

Rob
Hey Mukund, how are you?

Mukund
Hi Rob. I’m doing well. Good evening. How are you?

Rob
Good evening, Sir. Yeah. Doing OK, doing OK. I was just thinking about last week’s podcast where we talked a little bit about communicating with with people that are going through something difficult and. How best to sort of approach that problem and how best to help someone when they’re going through something difficult and wondering today whether we should talk about? Our own personal challenges that we’ve faced and continue to face in some circumstances and what we can do and what we’ve done to sort of get through those things, I know that speaking personally about those issues might be able to help some people. And yeah, I thought we’d continue that theme and. Sort of go. Delve a little bit deeper into sort of the individual challenges that you and I have faced and what we’ve done to get to. Our current state of being, how do you think about that?

Mukund
Sure. I think that’s a good idea. In the past few weeks, we talked about what was it, the financial stress, yeah. Anxiety or stress about the uncertainty or about the future. Last week you talked about like your communities last social outreach, how you reach out to your friends if you suspect. Of of he or she having an issue. Too. And now I think it’s kind of collect all try to see how we can address issues that we are going through, whatever it might be. I like this idea. We can share what we went through rather how we handle a particular situation. And kind of take it from there.

Rob
Yeah, that sounds good. When we were talking last week, I had this idea in my mind of trying to connect with someone on their problems. Really comes down to your own experience with certain issues and the things that have helped you and whether whether you can help them or not also relate to in. Our lives, our. Collective experiences right thing. Is that we’ve talked about, like you said, we talked about job losses, we talked about different things that happen in our relationships that can. Everyone can sort of connect to and and sort of understand. And yeah, I think let’s talk more today about what we’ve been going through in our lives and try to sort of summarize some of the lessons we’ve learned and explain a little bit more about why we want to sort of. Let’s use that knowledge and that information to help people and and how that works and and what inspires us to to do these things. As individuals, I know for me, if we’re going to get into it, the the first thing that came to my mind when we were talking last week about people helping people overcome their own challenges is that I was. When I was born, I was born with a a condition called spina bifida, and I know part of my. Something that I identify identify with closely is the community of people that have disabilities and people that have medical or health issues and you know they’ve. That day-to-day experience of people with with disability is something that I can connect with strongly because although my spina bifida, there are there for people that don’t know spina bifida is Latin. For I think there is a laughs in phrase, but it basically I was born with a. Hole in my spine. And that affects central nervous system and it impacts all lots of different facets of my life. But the part of the major impact it has is that I don’t have great sensitivity in my. Lower part of my body and particularly my feet. I don’t really feel my feet very well. Part of the challenge of that, of course, is that being a guy that was born in Manchester in the UK, I was obsessed with soccer from a young age and by the way, now that I say soccer people in the UK that listening to this, obviously I mean football. They will be very upset if they hear me. Calling it soccer. I’m doing that for the American audience and for humankind because. You might.

Mukund
I I haven’t. I have an Asian heritage, so I know what you mean by what you mean by football and soccer. So don’t worry about me.

Rob
We have to, we have to have like a cross national audience, right? So I’m trying to, I’ll do that translation for everybody. I mean, I mean the game that we play with our feet, so I was, I’ve tested that from a young age and so not being able to feel, feel my feet very well probably at a disadvantage. But for me part of the, I guess not really the challenge, but part of the the fun. Overcoming something is you do the thing you you play soccer and then people find out later that you can’t. You you don’t have the same experience they do. When people find out that I have this medical condition, I can’t feel my feet. They’re usually pretty amazed because although I’m not a great soccer player like I’m never, I’m never played even close to the amateur. I don’t know my professional level I. Like just kicking the ball. Around the idea of. Of belonging to a group of people that can. We’re born with without these difficulties. Without without these challenges. And I’m trying to. I’m trying to sort of not compete, but try to sort of play on that level. Is is something that has always sort of motivated me as someone that identifies as having a disability such as it is. You know, it’s something that. I know a a great number of people, millions of people across North America, billions of people around the world are born with disabilities, are born with challenges, health challenges, medical challenges. However, you want to phrase. That and the idea, I think for me, was always how can I? As a young, like a young kid, it took me a long time to realize that although I wasn’t able to do things as well as people that could, you know, feel their feet normally and people that had were born with an intact body it, it took me a long time to think of that as an opportunity for improvement for myself and to sort of. Be proud of the the achievements that I’ve made given my circumstances, I think that some pride is something that is a lot of people that are able bodied and people that have a disability. Pride is an essential component of that sort of growth. For me, it was at least it took me a long time to have pride in my ability to overcome things. And then once you instill that understanding once you have that achievement, you know you play a soccer game with able bodied kids at whatever age. I was 678 years old, I was sort of running around and attempting to kick a ball with with everybody else. Once you see that you’re able to do that and you know you might do it a little differently than everyone else, and you might have different understanding and different abilities based on your circumstances, but you you can sort of have your own sense of self and pride and identity unique to you, obviously, and and unique to your. Body and your mind. I don’t know whether you have any. Questions about this or comment.

Mukund
Yeah. So I mean, thanks for sharing, Rob. I didn’t know about the difficulty you had growing up actually. So you overcoming this, what was your turning point or rather what made you have a conscious effort to turn the situation around? Can you share?

Rob
Sure. I don’t know whether. There’s like one moment that I can pinpoint, but for me, it’s certainly. 678 years old I it was very difficult. Like I had lots of different surgeries and lots of different hospital things. And so, you know, you are obviously that affects a lot of different if that affects schooling, you’re behind at school, you’re already different from the other kids. I know a lot of people can sort of associate. Or make a connection there. You know you feel different? Like you’re a young kid. You don’t. Young kids, especially young boys, men. We we don’t want to feel different than our friends who want to be in a group we want to belong, and I’m sure women will identify with that too, as as a person you just want to belong with a group you want. We are social beings and we are. We want to feel like we are just like everybody else and we can be part of something. Bigger than ourselves, even from a young age, I wasn’t a I didn’t have that. Option or opportunity from a young age because I kept you know, I was having. Surgeries I was. Out of school, you know? Then you’re recovering. You know you you may be doing homework at home or in hospital or whatever and trying to sort. It felt like I was constantly trying to catch up with everybody else so that that was the big the big turning point. To get back to the original question, while I start rambling big, the big turning point I would I would put it as. Sort of a mental turning point, realizing that. Not only was like when I was, like I said, when I was a young kid, I feel like I I felt really sorry for myself. I felt like life is unfair. Why? Why me? You know what? What did I do to deserve this? Right. And and this is true, I think of a lot of traumatic. Events. That’s the. First instinct, a lot of people have is why me? Why? Do I I? I should state I’m not a mental health professional. I don’t have that knowledge, that experience of helping people professionally through this, but. Knowing myself, having gone through something like this, I I felt like for me it was the first instinct of why me, what’s going on? Why did I what? Why? This is not fair. I did. I’m I’m a good person. I try. I do my best or a good kid at that point. And you know, I I’m. I’m nice to people I. Don’t deserve this. The the turning. Point for me is realizing I think I was probably 10 or 11 and I. Cognizant of it may have been when I was playing during this during a game, I think it was I may have been playing soccer or running, I forget. But it was. I was cognizant of the idea that I am so lucky to be able to do that. I am so lucky in that moment to be running around just enjoying that. Enjoying the fresh air with with my friends it it doesn’t matter whether to anybody other than me, whether I think I’m different than you or nobody else thinking of me as any different than them. The the, the, the, the, the sense I had of unfairness was all within me and within the idea of yes, of course. Objectively, it’s not fair that someone is born with a disability and someone isn’t. But this is the circumstances that you have and you have to enjoy being in different moments. You have to enjoy the experience rather than. Staying in your head, I didn’t have to have these words to put to it when I was a kid, but this is how I think of it now. I there was a turning point for me where I just started. Thinking of enjoying the experience rather than. Rather than sort of. Denying my. Progress that I’d made or the night like like thinking of it as I should be doing better, looking at looking at the progress I’d already made. From from when I was younger and so sort of going. Enjoy this progress, enjoy this experience and once I was able to do that, I think. Certainly my mental health improved as a kid, you know. But my I think even my physical abilities when I was playing soccer and doing different sports, I think my ability to do those sports improved by freeing myself from getting frustrated that I wasn’t able to do the things that that. Physically able people were able to do there. There are obviously there are laws of nature and physics that you know, we can’t all be Usain Bolt. We can’t all be Michael Jordan. We can’t all be like Lionel Messi. You know, there are these these. This is not a restriction like yes, you can’t be that person, but that is not that is not restrict you from being you, you you can sort of do something with your own abilities and you can be proud of your own ability to do things to a certain level. It might not be to the level of the ultimate elite athletes in the world and you know you can be angry. That the world. But it makes no difference to the world whether you’re angry at it. You can. You just have to sort of enjoy that experience. And I was able to sort of grow from that as a kid, I think.

Mukund
That’s a very interesting take on it, Rob, in terms of coming out of an adversity or rather, you know, dealing with an adversity and seeing the positive in it having gone through this at a young age, I’m sure this is part of your life now, right, which you are obviously living with.

Rob
Yeah. Spina bifida is a sort of a lifelong thing. It doesn’t really like it’s a. It’s a day-to-day thing. It affects all parts of your of your body, your anatomy, your bowels and bladder and things like that. But it’s, let’s put it this way. I used to think of it as a barrier, but I don’t anymore. I sort of think of it as like I was quite. I’m quite fortunate in the sense that my mind. Was able to catch up with my experience in my body. It was sort of like a. I think I’m better able to help people having gone through those experiences.

Mukund
And have you had the chance to meet similar or have the people in a similar situation?

Rob
Part of my experience in going through having spina bifida, having this sort of condition, I realised that I was able to sort of help others. Perhaps in a way that someone who doesn’t have this condition wouldn’t be able to help others. I realized that not that it was a responsibility, but I felt like. Maybe it was something that I had to do for myself more than anyone else. I had to sort of prove to myself that I was able to sort of. You know, like I said, I was. I was playing sports with people that were able bodied. I was sort of doing different things that you would normally associate with someone that had no disabilities or different weren’t differently abled. So part of my recent. Growth in that area was attending a running group, we. It was started by a a lady who lives locally to me and I thought it was a really interesting idea. She had a or has a son in a in a wheelchair. And she found that her son, when they would go running together, she would push her son. And we live pretty close to the water. So there’s a great little running path by the water and you get the. Breeze there and she found that her son really enjoyed that. And so she started a running group for people that would be able to run with people in wheelchairs. So runners and then pushing people in in a. Culture that we’re normally not able to sort of experience running and just sort of that like have that combined group experience. And I thought that was a cool idea. So I joined this group probably the first time in 2017, I think and before COVID we were doing it every Friday night, we would go out. Right after work, we would go by out by the water and they’re just sort of more than anything more than the physical health benefits of running. And, you know the the exertion of it, you get to sort of. Develop a sense of understanding about how things are for other people that you wouldn’t necessarily have if you were just sort of running for yourself or you, you know, you saw people running, uh, you sort of get a sense of, like, people that don’t have that ability to run and you get to sort of cherish the experience of of. Being with people that are just like people that were having the time of their lives like they were like, they were enjoying the experience of like the the wind in their head, the the, the, the breeze of going by by the water and just sort of, you know like we we would talk as we were we were running and you know we would we would sort of develop connections with the people that we were running with. So it was sort of like a friendship group that became sort of a a social outing with an exercise component to it. And I really felt that that. When I was doing that, it sort of. Allowed me to develop a deeper understanding of my own ability and my sense of control. Basically more than anything else over my body and and and what I can do and what I can’t do, we have to sort of be realistic about what we can’t do, but what we can do is improve the experience of others, even despite your own deficits. What whatever they might be, and so that that was an important lesson.

Mukund
Right.

Rob
To me, and something that I learned. I think I’ve probably rambled a lot about my own experiences in this area. McCann, what can you share in terms of something that you’ve been through that you’ve sort of had to overcome and and develop an understanding that you? Didn’t have before.

Mukund
Sure, I’ve actually yours was not a ramble. It was much more of, you know, thank you for sharing your personal experience and the way you welcome that is something that I think even I can learn from. But to answer your question as to what obstacles I overcame on a philosophical scale, the purpose in life? So this started like a few years ago. Honestly, the thoughts gradually started seeping in as to well, what is this that we’re trying to do? It’s a kind of rhetorical question because there’s no real answer to it because nobody knows the answer. It’s more of the explain to get out of it. Each of us go through at different phases in life in terms of what is it that we’re doing here. It was more on a larger philosophical scale like I mentioned, just because there’s no tangible. Things I can do to control it, like kind of a rat race right at the end of the day, everyone goes through it. I think I found comfort in knowing that I’m not alone in this, but the question remained that what is it that we’re trying to do as as humans? I started reading books. I started talking to people kind of went into period of deep thought and you know self reflection as to what I needed to do. So I think even now it’s not like a clear answer but something that made sense to me is to make life. Out of the small things. Life does not have to be something big. It does not have to have one single big end goal. I think it’s rather the journey than the destination. Is what I kind of took away from it.

Rob
Did you? You know, there’s always that that saying of like the the it’s the moments that matter rather than the.

Mukund
Exactly, yes.

Rob
The overarching things that you’re doing the the big objective is not that important compared to the the memories you make along the way. Is it something that? Was there a moment that occurred to you that that, that, that, that thought occurred to you was a there? Was there a a standout thought that happened all of a sudden?

Mukund
It’s it’s not something that happened that changed my thinking. It’s rather me trying to make sense of it giving example. So if you’re making a trip, a road trip from you know from. From New York City to going West to Chicago, for example, we always plan for when you reach Chicago as the end goal and then you plan trips are on there. I started thinking about the trip itself, looking at attractions, looking at national parks along the way, some monuments along the way. So I made it more of the journey, so I usually plan my trips like that, which I think that’s the same approach I’m taking to life. As well, yeah. Ultimately, we are. We are there’s a limited time for each. Each of us have here. The only thing that is certain when we’re born is. We’re going to die, so. Why not make the time we have memorable for me and for my family. And make as much experience as possible, because there’s nothing you can. You’re going to take with you except your memories when you’re dying there and you’re last taking your last breath. I know this might be morose and kind of depressing thought, but that that is reality. I hope my end is quick, but if not, if it drags on, at least I can. Spend my time with my memories. This is what I actually went through in terms of the meaning of life and what I’m doing here as a purpose. And what I took away from it is enjoy the journey rather than the destination. I’m not here to. To you know, to find the next big breakthrough. I know my limitations, which again goes back to what we talked about, right, a couple of episodes ago in terms of identity and stuff like that, who I am not is I’m not a revolutionary in in any sense. I am in my own corner of the world trying to do what I can.

Rob
You might be revolutionary in the sense that you’re probably the only person online right now who doesn’t think they’re revolutionary.

Mukund
Well, I mean so that has been my kind of mental state the past couple of years, which actually kind of led me to start this series of conversations with you. Actually, they initially we started talking about mental health because a lot of people in in reality do go through this in terms of finding their space in the world. As humans, we need something to do for us to keep going. That’s why I think it’s somewhere that it’s a dangerous state to be in once you retire because. You lose that purpose.

RobWhy are you getting up in the morning? What? Is the next thing you’re going to do. Yeah, 100%. I’ve read studies where people just sort of their mental health takes a big dive once they hit 65 and they, you know, they clock out for the last time. And they say, what do I do tomorrow? What? Does tomorrow look like and maybe?

Mukund
Right, right.

Rob
Maybe figuring out what tomorrow looks like should be done at, you know, 354045 rather than like 3065, yeah.

Mukund
Right. So. I don’t plan to retire in the traditional sense where I’m working today and tomorrow’s my last day at work and then I go to a beach house somewhere and then vegetate for the rest of my life. So I’ll have to keep getting myself engaged with projects anything. And again, going back, this is what that’s the reason I started this series of podcasts episodes concentrating on the mental health aspect, especially for men. Maybe that is something I can leave behind. Maybe somebody can find find this useful and I’m not the only one going through this. And again, we don’t. As guys, we don’t talk about. This much. It’s OK to wonder what your purpose is in life. The end of the day, just enjoy the journey, make little memories as you keep going.

Rob
I think what we talked about the last two episodes, it’s OK to sort of. Both ask your friends how they’re doing and also it’s OK to speak to your friends and your family and say, look, I’m not doing great and this is what’s going on. It’s it’s often difficult to find those sort of words to put out put to your feelings, but the more you do it, I think the better we become communicating these these challenges.

MukundExactly right, right, right.

Rob
I think that’s one of the keys to me. If we want to summarize the things that I’ve I’ve I’ve learned through that process of, you know, having a medical condition and sort of developing my understanding of it and then sort of developing my reaction to it and my response to it building my personality to sort of meet those challenges. Is that there are tons of people that all around you that want to help you. There are just tons of people, strangers, friends, whatever. It’s it. What happens is I think a lot of the time is certainly as men is, we sort of get this feeling of like, I’ll take care of it myself. Like, I’ll try to do this myself. And then what that teaches you, I think is that. It says. Nobody else can help you with this particular problem, so you try to do it all alone. You think nobody will understand what I’m going through? There’s nobody else that can, you know, we sort of. It’s a bit arrogant to think that we’re unique in the, you know, the there’s eight. What? 8 billion people on the planet. You know, everyone’s going through something and a lot of people are going through a similar thing to to you. And so one of the things I learned is that we just have to sort of find the people that are going through the similar things. Find your group, find people that understand and make that connection and just sort of.

Mukund
Right. You’re right, yeah.

Rob
Open yourself to the possibility that maybe other people know more than you, and also opening yourself to the idea that you might know more than the other person you’re speaking to and be open to sort of expressing yourself a little bit more. Yes. So that’s basically what I learned and why I like to talk about what I’m going through because I think it’s important to do those things.

Mukund
And to add on to your kind of capture all, it’s also important to know that it’s OK to make mistakes. But it’s important to realize that it’s just a mistake and life goes on. You can pick yourself up and plan the next stage. And I think physical activity goes a long way in calming the mind down as well. It doesn’t matter what you do, it can be heavy workout for like 20 minutes or like a pleasant walk for like 10 minutes in your park. Both have equal mind calming benefits. I continue to do that. I really do find my mind at ease after I do a workout and I’m sure even for you Rob, even if you go for a say game of soccer or even. Run that. That puts you in a better. Mood. When you come back.

Rob
I would just to add to what you were saying. I would also recommend if you’re struggling to get outside and you don’t, you know, have the motivation to do it. Get a dog immediately, get a dog and you will be going outside all the time and you’ll be meeting people all the time because everybody wants to see the dog touch the dog. Play with the dog and the dog will also push you to interact with anybody else that has a dog. So if you’re someone like me who doesn’t often interact with strangers when you’re walking around. If you could take the extra responsibility, get a dog and yes, it’ll, uh, it may change your the way you first of all, the way you see the world, because you will see the world at 6:30 in the morning when you know it’s pitch black in the northeast where we are and it’s. You know -5 Celsius, so it’s freezing, but the dog is the happiest he will ever be. He doesn’t care about literally anything but being outside and enjoying himself. And yeah, so that I’m sort of being a bit. Tongue in cheek about it, but definitely get a dog if you’re one of those people who has the resources to do that and the can have handle the responsibility of having an.

Mukund
Animal actually you bring up a good point. You do need the break between professional and personal life. Yeah, especially today, even with the hybrid working mode. We tend to work longer. I think we covered it in one of the previous episodes as well. It’s important that we proactively take time away for ourselves. Yeah, that will. That will result in a lot of good. Things so.

Rob
Yeah, it’s very it’s very difficult. I understand when we have work responsibilities to sort of turn off our phone and close our computer and just sort of shut down it is I, I understand that as someone that enjoys work and is just sort of motivated by success at work, I get that a lot of people are motivated by that. You know, good job. From the bus or whatever, and you know you want to get the project done, but it’s it’s not healthy in the long term to just be focused on work and flashing screens and you know, worrying about the next deadline. I, you know, I speak from experience where you just you get too focused on. You get too focused on. Worrying about the result of a project worrying about the result of work that it might even impact the quality of the work that you do because you’re not. You’re focused on the negative reaction that hasn’t happened yet that often happens to me, where you’re focused on, you know, if I don’t get this thing done at this time, this person’s going to be upset. Well, yeah, you can’t control whether people get upset. You know, whatever. So you just got. That really focus on yourself is probably the message that I would say to that is. If work has to be done, that’s fine, but make sure that you are. You are dedicating a certain amount of time in your day to you rather than just all responsibility.

Mukund
This conversation has kind of covered what we tried to cover individually the past few weeks, future and selective with the future not knowing what to do. It’s not realistic to plan for all the unknowns and how to mitigate the risk. Personally, yes, in terms of enjoying the journey rather than the destination. For me, at least. I think this is a good time to kind of break for this episode and then we can pick it up next week or what do you think?

Rob
That sounds good. That sounds good. I’ve really enjoyed this chat. I think it’s a good conversation to. Have and I’m hopeful. That quite a few people would have benefited from the various topics that we discussed today, because I think there’s these are important things and you know, I often don’t have the vocabulary to really demonstrate what I’m trying to say, but I think these are important messages which we’re we’re trying to get across and hopefully. The audience benefited from from from these messages.

Mukund
Yes, definitely. And for anybody who’s listening, you can reach out to us at at paddle my way on Instagram and also the website podcast.paddlemyway.com. So Rob once again it was great talking to you till next time you have a nice weekend.

Rob
You too, my friend. Great talking to you, Mikan. Thanks again.

Mukund
Thank you, rob. Bye. Bye for now.